Amanda Seales Small Doses Podcast
Side by side screens of Amanda Seales and Margaux Joffe recording the Small Doses Podcast.
Margaux Joffe joins Amanda Seales on Small Doses Podcast “Side Effects of Being Neurodivergent”
Amanda Seales is a comedian, actress, writer, producer who appeared on HBO's Insecure, has her own hit HBO Stand Up Special, a podcast called Small Doses with a NYTimes best seller book by the same name.
This spring she invited Margaux on her podcast to discuss neurodiversity. We get into the spectrum of neurodiversity, the social identity of neurodivergence, tools for coping with daily stressors and challenges, and learning how to advocate for yourself.
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Transcript
Amanda: Welcome to Small Doses podcast. I am so excited to do this episode, man. You know, the whole neurodivergent journey is a long one that you don't even realize you're on. For many people I know. I'm one of those people that didn't realize I was on that journey until I was able to put a name to it. And I was very fortunate in this process to find out that someone that I had been acquainted with that I didn't even know was an expert in all these spaces, was an expert in all these spaces. And that is today's guest, Margaux Joffe. And when we talk about Neurodivergence, there may be a lot of people listening who don't even really know what that means.
And so you should listen and keep listening just for that reason, but also because there's actual practical applications of tools that we talk about in this episode that I don't think a lot of us may even be getting from our professionals. So when we talk about neurodivergent, we're talking about ADHD, we're talking about autism, we're talking about OCD, we're talking about brains that function differently than what is considered the norm.
And so what I loved about this episode is also being able to pinpoint like, well, what is considered the norm and what's considered outside of the norm? And how do you fall on that, which is why it's called a spectrum. When we get into the conversation, you're going hear me, you're gonna hear me like, oh my God, because I am still on this journey.
And so there's so many aha moments that I continue to have that continue to bring me peace. So for anybody out there who's neurospicy, for anybody out there that has neurospicy friends, for anybody out there that has neurospicy children or family members, I'm telling you and I, I can't imagine that I left anyone out by naming those three things.
This episode is for everybody, and I think Margaux does a really great job of grounding the conversation outside of like the science and medical of it, and into the reality of it, which is what is so absolutely necessary in order to actually face it and connect with it and embrace. So check it out. Let's do it.
Side effects of being neurodivergent with Margaux Joffe.
Small Doses podcast. This is a long overdue episode and I'm so happy to have our guest today. Margaux Joffe, founder of Minds of All Kinds. As we get into side effects of being Neurodivergent, which I feel like, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it feel like this has become much more a part of the zeitgeist in the last like three to four years?
Margaux: Definitely. I think during the pandemic a lot more people are getting diagnosed with ADHD autism. People talking about it on TikTok, definitely more in the mainstream, but also we could be biased because we might just be looking for it.
Amanda: Touche. Okay. Well first off, first off, first off, tell us all the background of how you became to be a person. Who is the right person to talk to us about this. And if you all hear a meow, you know, that's Lando. You know Lando has cancer so he can do whatever he wants and he's sitting right here with us. So if you hear a meow, that's what that is
Margaux: How I came to become a person [laughter] Um, so first of all, thank you so much for having me on this beautiful podcast that you've created.
Thank you for your platform for educating and uplifting so many people. You have contributed tremendously. To our society. You are a literally a gift to the world, and I appreciate you and I'm Thank you so much. I'm so excited to come and talk about neurodiversity. One of my favorite topics is personal for me.
I'm a neurodivergent woman and also professionally, I'm a board certified cognitive specialist. I'm certified in accessibility, and I'm the founder of Minds of all kinds, a platform for neurodivergent people to learn, connect, lead. My background is actually in the creative field, so I spent the first decade of my career as a producer, first producing public health campaigns for the city of Boston, then going to New York, producing advertising, then moving out to Silicon Valley and producing in tech.
And so it's been quite a journey, but my career and my life really changed when I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was 29. And that set me on a whole path of self-discovery. And based on the struggles I had had, I wanted to help others like me. And that led me into a number of initiatives. Launching the first of its kind platform formed by women with a DHD 10 years ago, and then going on into the workplace, creating global peer support network in tech, and doing an initiative with Getty Images to improve how disability is represented in the media.
And ultimately starting my own company almost four years ago. So it's been quite a journey, but at the end of the day, I'm really trying to create a more inclusive and accessible world for neurodivergent people. I wanna see a future where people with different types of minds are not punished or policed, but they're valued, cherished in every school, workplace, and community.
Amanda: I mean, I'm with you, sister. Like, I just, okay. Can you actually tell us before we even dig deeper. What are some of the more common forms or common diagnoses that fall under the neurodivergent umbrella?
Margaux: Yes, thanks for bringing up that metaphor. So neurodivergent is really an umbrella term that was coined in 2000 by Kasianne Asasumasu, who's an Asian American autistic advocate. And it is an umbrella term that means anyone whose mind, whose brain diverges from what is considered typical in society. So if you weren't familiar with that term, that's the basic idea and about it's estimated like one in five people are estimated to be neurodivergent. It's a very wide umbrella.
It can include anything from learning disabilities like dyslexia, dyscalculia, dyspraxia. It can include. Neurodevelopmental conditions like attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, ADHD, autism, things like OCD, but which
Amanda: ADHD is ADD. They just changed the name, right?
Margaux: Yes.
Amanda: Okay.
Margaux: Yes. So it used to be two separate diagnoses.
There used to be ADD and ADHD, and basically in the latest DSM five, which is basically the big book where they classify all the mental disorders, it was reclassified as ADHD umbrella. So if you get diagnosed with A DHD today, you'll get diagnosed with ADHD, and then they'll probably give you a. Your subtype.
So they'll say you're either inattentive subtype, or presentation hyperactive, impulsive, or combined, or you have a little bit of both worlds.
Amanda: Got it. Got it. So I had cut you off. There was,
Margaux: oh no, you were good. I think your original question was about common. So like I think dyslexia is one of the most common.
So you think about, well, I was
Amanda: I was asking like what are diagnoses that fall under neurodivergent? Mm. Like autism?
Margaux: Yeah, autism. ADHD, dyslexia, OCD, bipolar. Oh, neurodivergence could be acquired. Right? So if you have long covid, that's gonna impact your cognitive functioning. If you get in a car accident and have a concussion, you might have an acquired brain injury, a traumatic brain injury.
So that's like A TBI, ABI that's gonna impact your cognitive function. So neurodivergence can be innate or acquired, and it can look like a whole number of things. Right? Schizophrenia. So it's not a medical diagnosis, it's more of a social identity that people choose if they wanna identify with.
Amanda: See, before we started I was like, you know, we're gonna have this conversation.
Margaux’s gonna end up answering questions I didn't even know I was asking. And that is a great example right there. Neurodivergence is not a diagnosis, it is a social identity. I love that and I think that's very helpful for a lot of people. So talk to me about, just illuminate for us, the necessity for spaces to be created, like the ones you're creating for Neurodivergence.
Because I can say as somebody who verbalized like, yes, I am Neurodivergent and I'm self-diagnosed autistic, that that immediately became a point of contention for people. Like, how dare you? Mm. But then it also became a point for people of like, you don't belong. If that's how your brain works, like then you know you don't belong.
And I'd love to hear, just you speak on how that shows up in professional spaces and in schools, et cetera. Hmm.
Margaux: Well, it's not fair that you have been treated that way. That thanks, what you say has been questioned or disbelieved. And too many women, especially women of color, have that experience where they're not listened to, they're not taken seriously, and they're not given the support that they deserve.
Especially within the medical setting, when you're going to seek a diagnosis. Too many women are turned away saying, oh, you can't have that. You have a master's degree. Or you're just stressed. Right. Or you're overreacting. You're being difficult, you're being too emotional. So this is not okay. And your question about why is this important?
I'm gonna go straight to the gravitas of why this matters. I think too often people think about neurodivergence as they equate it to, oh, that's not real, or That's just a quirky personality trait. Mm-hmm. But it is high. Stakes and the difference between winning and losing is if you get identified and get the support.
So just to break it down, like to share some stats about what I'm talking about, there was a study that actually was published last month about life expectancy and A DHD. So just to talk about A DHD specifically, this study found that women with A DHD are living nine years less than their peers. They're dying nine years earlier and men with A DHD are dying seven years earlier.
And why is this happening? And, and it's not just a DHD when you look at autism, autistic people are twice as likely to die prematurely. And it's not because of the neurodivergence itself, it's because people aren't getting identified and getting the support. That they need. And what that is leading to is things like struggles with mental health, eating disorders, abusive relationships, incarceration, challenges with employment, financial issues, chronic stress, and all of this has devastating consequences.
And speaking about autistic, specifically, autistic women are 13 times more likely to die by suicide than non-autistic or autistic women, 13 times more likely to die by suicide. This is a public health crisis. And so when we talk about why this matters, it's because there are serious outcomes for people's lives, and that's why it is so important that people have access to early identification so they can learn about their brain and get the support that they need so that they can support their wellbeing.
Amanda: So, just so you know, and I felt I always failed to say this in the beginning, but we can approach this more as a conversation versus like question, answer, question, answer. Mm. So just know that
Margaux: what are the ways I get so passionate I get, you know, it's like I, oh, I'm not stopping. I'm gonna exhale, I'm gonna exhale.
It's like I've spoken to so many people and all the stories and all the experiences, and so thank you for platforming this topic. Thank you for speaking about it publicly about your own experience because I. You have a powerful voice and the way that you talk about it in your forthcoming book, this is gonna reach people and resonate in ways that they've never been able to experience before.
Amanda: Thank you so much for saying that y'all. I put up the draft of my chapter on autism, on my own autism. I put up the draft of the chapter on my Patreon, and so folks got to read it and Margaux got a chance to read it and gave me such incredible feedback and encouragement. And it's like I know that as somebody who myself only saw autism as one version of things, I never considered that I could be honestly in this space because of the stigma and because of the misinformation.
So I was like denying myself the information to free myself. Mm-hmm. And. I would have like inklings because I would see things. I was just talking about how on this season of MOA Me's show Mo, his brother, who is autistic on the show, learns that he is autistic. Like he gets named and he goes to a psychiatrist and his monologue talking about his life experience with it felt like it was me.
It was, I was like, this is me. And when you say women with autism have such high levels of taking their own lives, I'm not surprised because there's a certain level of just one mystery, but also of you just get tired of making people feel uncomfortable. Mm. Like you get tired of feeling like you are the common, right.
When people say like, oh, you're the common denominator, you get tired of being the common denominator to other people's discomfort and your own misery.
Margaux: Mm. Other people's in your own misery and you're literally just existing.
Amanda: Like, and you, you're trying to change things that are maybe like behavioral or whatever.
And I think there's things that you practice at, right? Like, you know, and you can become more practiced at. But it's still, it's an effort. I mean, it's not like it's a natural thing. I mean, I think that theoretically we're like, it's like kung fu. If you just wax on, wax off long enough, it becomes natural and it's like, yeah, but you're still, when you get in the ring, you gotta be able to pull it out of there.
Yeah. And you don't know what you're gonna be facing.
Margaux: And that's tiring. And all that effort leads to, you know, it's exhaustion. So when you're masking and you're in a constant state of masking and changing your behavior and your tone of voice and the way that you speak and the way that you interact with people, it takes a lot of energy and.
Then you get to a certain point where some people I've talked to have said they don't know what's the difference of the mask and then who they really are because they've had to mask everywhere in school, at work, at home, in their relationships. Can you actually illuminate for folks what masking is? Yes.
So masking simply put is like putting on a mask. So you are changing your appearance or your behavior to conform and be accepted in society or in the spaces you're in. And it's incredibly exhausting.
Amanda: I think part of the exhausty is that it's not finite. There's so many masks for so many spaces.
Margaux: Yes. Oh my goodness.
And the layers. Yeah. It's not like you put it on in one environment and then you can take it off and it's not like code switching where it's like, I'm here, but then now I can be here where I'm in a safe space. But I would say what is similar is when you do come into recognition of your neurodivergence and you do have that consciousness.
Being in community with neurodivergent, people can be so healing and joyful places where you can start the process of unmasking and being okay to just, just be without changing who you are. And neurodivergent friendship, like just to talk about that for a second.
Amanda: Mm-hmm.
Margaux: I mean, the joy and the experience of that cannot even adequately be expressed in words.
It's like finding your people. So one of my best friends, his name is Eric, he's autistic and a DHD, so Audi, DHD. He is lives in DC And we met professionally and then now we message each other every single day. It was on WhatsApp, but now we change over to Signal and every day we're checking in things like, did you eat lunch?
Have you drank water today? And then we celebrate the small wins. And what I'm talking about is like if we folded our laundry. You know, or went to the grocery store if we're doing something adulting and he'll message me. I picked up my dry cleaning. I've been procrastinating that, and then I'm sending him all the emojis and celebrating.
We have a joke about unfolded laundry because folding laundry is one of Thebans of our existence. So I will send you a photo
Amanda: later today.
Margaux: Yeah. The pile of laundry on the bed. So I have like, now I've just gotten Stop
Amanda: yelling. Yelling at Margo, please.
Margaux: You know, you just like push it over to one half of the bed and then you sleep on the other. No. So, um, but, so this is the thing, but what we can do is we can design our environments for the reality of life and the reality of who we are versus this aspirational idea of who we are or who our life should be.
So like, I have a laundry like basket thingy for clean clothes. So when I take them outta the dryer. I can just put 'em in there and put it in my closet. And when I have the time to fold it, I will. But then it's not stressing me out. It's not on my bed and then I'm not seeing it. 'cause the visual clutter also for me can bother me.
'cause then that's the visual overstimulation. So it's about, you just cracked a code for me. I cracked a code for Amanda Seals. Yes. Lemme put that on my LinkedIn.
Amanda: Ah, I'm ordering that. I'm gonna get that. Like I've been really working on my consumerism. So it's like, what are things that you need versus just like, oh, this is a thing.
Like I had to tell my mom today, stop sending me all this crap because my mom just sends me things and I'm like, this is consumerism. We need to check this. Yes. But that right there, that's not consumerism. That will help change my life. Mm. But what do you say to people who say, well, it just sounds like you're just busy.
It doesn't sound like you're neurodivergent. Like it sounds like you're just busy and that's why you didn't fold the clothes.
Margaux: Hmm. Yeah. It can be frustrating because a lot of times neurodivergent experiences are minimized. People say, that's not that hard, just do it. Stop being lazy. Mm-hmm. Why can't you just blank?
Have you tried using a planner? Right. So like all of these things that minimize the experience and it's like, yeah, everyone gets busy from time to time. Everybody lets their laundry pile up from time to time. Of course. Right. And that's okay too, right? We're all messy humans and we don't have to aspire to this like idea of perfection.
Yeah. But at the same time, when it gets to a point where you're struggling with the daily life tasks and they're piling it up and causing this level of stress that's interfering with your wellbeing, not everybody experiences that. And not everybody has challenges with executive functioning skills, and that's one of the other big misconceptions.
So a lot of different forms of neurodivergence, whether it's autism, A DHD, dyslexia, long covid, traumatic brain injury, they all impact this frontal area in our brain that has to do with our executive functioning skills. Skills like task activation, which is getting started on tasks, planning, organizing, prioritizing decision making, managing effort and time.
So that can look like from the outside, if you don't know, you know, you might be judged as, oh, that person just being lazy. Why can't they just get started on that project when really they're just struggling with the task activation. They may be struggling with just getting started, but the good news is there are strategies, there's things we can do.
And so that's what I get so passionate about sharing with others is knowing that I. You don't have to fall into this learned helplessness like, oh, well I have this so I can't do that. It's like, no. Like there's strategies and skills you can try. You can make your toolbox and then you can move through life with a little bit greater ease.
Amanda: What would you say are like two tools that you have found to be really effective in application?
Margaux: Yes. So many things. One of the things I teach in my program, A DHD navigators is like we start with the ABCs of getting shit done without losing your shit. So automation, body doubling and chunking automation is, if there's routine things that you can automate, put it on automatic or outsource so you don't have to do it.
Great body doubling, doing it with somebody else. So. If you're gonna fold laundry, like call your friend and talk on the phone so you, you're like having somebody with you. So basically boring shit is easier when you're doing it with a friend. That's what I
Amanda: do to package my orders. Like I go on live. And at first I was doing that because it was like, oh, I can talk about the thing that I'm packaging.
But then I realized, no, this is allowing me to do this far more effectively. Like I can like stay in it longer.
Margaux: Yes. Because packaging the orders, it's repetitive, it's mundane, it's not using your brain it, so then your brain becomes bored. It's not stimulating enough. And so for the type of brain you have, we have stimulation seeking brains.
So if something is too mundane and easy and boring, it's like anyone may find that boring, but for us it can feel like climbing Mount Everest just to get something simple done. And so that's where we can think about how can we, and I love, uh, I have this whole like. Salt Bay metaphor I talk about, but it's like thinking about sprinkling some stimulation on those mundane and boring tasks.
And you get into the brain science and learn about the drivers of motivation, specifically in the A DHD brain. But this can be relevant for other people too, who struggle with motivation is that we have what is called an interest-based nervous system Psychiatrist, William Dotson talks about this. So it basically means if we're interested in something, it's gonna be way easier for us to focus and do it.
We're not always motivated by external rewards and consequences in the way that other people are. So we're motivated by things like urgency, novelty, interest, challenge. So when things are novel, they're new, they're exciting. Like your podcast, right? You have different guests every time, so there's always that novelty factor.
Keeps it stimulating, keeps it engaging. This is by design.
Amanda: Yes. Literally, when I created this podcast, I said to myself, you need to do a podcast that has a framework. Because I have simultaneously, I have a need for a certain amount of routine because it gives me comfort. But then there also has to be variety so that I don't get bored.
Mm-hmm. That's why like a lot of my creative work on stage will have form, but improv because I want there to be something that grounds us, but I also need there to be a variety. So whenever you see me do standup, you never see the same show twice. What would the ancestors say? Same thing. I'm in the process of writing a film right now and I genuinely, Margaux don't wanna write the screenplay because I feel like it's gonna bore the shit outta me to write the screenplay.
I would rather just write the scenes and have like lines that I know that I wanna get said and otherwise like let it just happen and like kind of direct the happening of it. And I know people may be like, well that's not writing, but it sounds like it to me. But I was gonna say to the point of interest-based nervous system.
When I was a kid, my mom would be like, she'd be in the car like, mans can you go get my purse? I forgot my purse. And I would be like, Ugh. And then she would just start counting and then I would rush. Yes. But like it didn't matter how many times she did this, I would be like, okay, how fast did I do it? How fast?
Margaux: Yes. Because now it's a game. It's a challenge. Yes. And so it's kind of like if you need to clean your house, like invite your friends over for brunch because it's like, oh shit, people are coming over here. Am I allowed to swear on this? I didn't ask in the beginning. Mm-hmm. Okay. It's like uhoh, people are coming over now I need to clean.
And you have that element of challenge and the urgency and you have a deadline because deadlines are helpful for us. Right. And then your house is gonna be the cleanest it's been all week.
Amanda: I remember getting stood up by a guy and I texted him and was just like, thank you for giving me a reason to clean my house.
That house was SPIC
Margaux: and span.
Amanda: Span.
Margaux: My house is never more clean than when I'm inviting somebody over. Literally For sure.
Amanda: Literally, I had to do a shoot in the house yesterday and I made things happen magically that I have been looking at that making happen for weeks.
So automation, body doubling, I'm learning so much automation, body doubling. What's the c? C is for chunking.
Margaux: So it sounds basic, but basically thinking about when you have a big project, breaking it down into small chunks, small easy pieces. So this is kind of counter to what you may hear, neurotypical productivity advice, if you've ever in those books about productivity.
They talk about things like I. Eat the frog, do the hardest thing first. Have you heard that expression? Eat the frog?
Amanda: No. Mm-hmm. Uh, is that like if you're on fear factor, eat the frog?
Margaux: It's like in these productivity books about getting things done, because we live in this society that's obsessed with productivity and output, and it's informed by capitalism and it's not okay that we live in a society where the value of a human being's life is based on how productive they can be or how much they can output.
Amanda: Correct.
Margaux: And that's why like within the disability space and in disability justice, we talk about every human life has value. Every body in mind is unique and essential, and we wanna avoid creating this hierarchy of worth where we talk about people being like high functioning and low functioning, right?
Mm-hmm. Because then you're basically assigning value on somebody's life based on how productive they are or how much they can function within. This society that's very dysfunctional.
Amanda: Ooh. What is the better terminology to use to address an autistic person who may not be able to care for themselves at the same level as another autistic person?
Margaux: Yeah, so advocates talk about support needs. So talking about what your support needs are, or somebody who has higher support needs or lower support needs. Got it. And that's actually more specific and more informative. Yeah. Right. And your support needs can change because disability is dynamic. So some days you may have lower support needs, and then there may be other times or periods in your life or life stages if your body's changing, your hormones changing, where maybe you're gonna need more support.
So if you use the terminology high functioning and low functioning, you're not a bad person. Like I actually used to refer to myself as somebody who had high functioning ADHD. I also have been diagnosed with depression, generalized anxiety disorder, and PMDD. I used to refer to myself as high functioning until I started being more in community learning from organizations like the Autistic Self-Advocacy Network and advocates talking and encouraging folks to move away from functioning labels.
Because what it does is for high functioning folks or people with lower support needs, it actually puts them on a pedestal without support, and it kind of minimizes -
Amanda: facts.
Margaux: - the real challenges, like you being a person who's highly gifted, highly talented, extreme intellectual, and communication abilities, thanks.
But if we put you on this pedestal as like, look at this savant like person who's high functioning, then it puts you in a position where your needs are minimized and then you're not in a position. People won't take you seriously when you ask for support.
Amanda: That's literally been my whole life is like you are high functioning, so you don't need support.
Like that's part of me and my mom's constant beef. Mm. It's like this idea that you're gonna figure it out, so you don't need anything from anyone at any time. Mm. And. At this age, you've kind of been built that way now. So yeah, there's a part of that that is this accepting that, and then there's a part of that that's like parsing through what part of that exception is harming you still.
Margaux: Yeah.
Amanda: Or harming your ability to be in like partnerships. Mm-hmm. Right. But that idea of the high functioning, like I talk about it in the essay that I put in my book when I was 11, this idea that like, well, if you're smart, you can never ask questions. You know? And if you're smart, you can never not know the answer if you're gifted.
But I think the functionality part of it changing is fascinating because I can absolutely say that I'm like a super duper prolific person. Like I am productive just by nature of I'm really efficient so I can like get things done really fast, right? It doesn't mean that I don't get tired. It doesn't mean that I don't get exhausted.
And I think for some people they look at that as like, oh, she just doesn't need breaks or she doesn't need assistance. So I know that as I've gotten older, I have developed ADD that requires a lot more tools. I think I've always had that to an extent, but I was functional to the point of being able to kind of make it work for me by the nature of the jobs that I've been in.
But as I've gotten older, I've realized like, yeah, you need to talk to your psychiatrist about some real tools. That's why I'm over here taking notes. Automation, body doubling, chunking. Because when you said chunking, so what I've noticed, even with like so doing fulfillment when you have, when you're selling things and you have to do your own fulfillment, it is the most interminable and also.
Really mistake ridden space of the work. Yes. And I don't like making mistakes, so it's like, how do I solve for both of those things? Well, that means I need to have more time. Mm-hmm. But chunking has been helpful because I can fill the orders with the like promo items first. Mm-hmm. So that when I'm actually filling the orders based on who ordered what, I'm only thinking about putting that in the package versus promo items and that.
Does that make sense?
Margaux: Yes, that makes sense.
Amanda: So that's chunking, right?
Margaux: Yes. That's chunking. Doing it one step at a time because a lot of people struggle with overwhelm. So they're thinking about all the steps that need to happen to get something done. And they're holding all of that in the brain at once, and it's super overwhelming. So with chunking, it's about also just focusing on the one step at a time to not get overwhelmed. Like, what do I need to do now? Okay, I'm just printing this label for Sandra.
Amanda: Yep.
Margaux: And now I'm doing this. And just like also breathing and also being in our bodies and -
Amanda: - breathing. breathing Margaux
Margaux: Yeah. That's, that's essential for life.
Amanda: It's essential for life. Get it together Seales.
[Dog barks]
Margaux: Can you hear my dog of course he is now barking. You hear him?
Amanda: I love him. That's fine. Yeah. he's like, breathe bitch. [laughter] Like, that's what he's saying.
So what's the D? We got automation, body doubling. Chunking.
Margaux: The last thing I'll say is also lowering the bar. Because sometimes we put the highest expectations on ourselves, even more so than neurotypical people. And not everything requires A plus work. Sometimes it's a CS get degrees situation.
Amanda: And again, with the yelling, please stop yelling at me. [laughter]
Margaux: There was this woman in my A DHD program, she said something and I, I like still remember it, she said, 'cause we were talking about this idea of done is better than perfect because perfectionism is something that a lot of late diagnosed neurodivergent folks struggle with, especially women.
Amanda: Hey y’all
Margaux: And so it's, you know, this discussion about how is this need for perfection holding you back more than it's helping you? And we were talking about this idea of done is better than perfect, which in the creative field, you know, we know that well. And she said, B minus work can still change the world. B minus work can still change the world.
And that really resonated with me. And I share that because. Sometimes we're aiming for a plus and then if it's not a plus, we don't even put it out there. That's, and so we're robbing the world of this gift that we have inside and just remembering like B minus work can still make a huge impact on someone's life.
Amanda: Listen, I've had to like really, really do a lot of work to that. Like I shot something yesterday and like we had messed up continuity for something. Like I had like put earrings on and I didn't have earrings on before, and I could tell that the videographer was kind of like, oh my God. Like, and I've had to work so hard to be like, it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter because everything else that we did, like if that's what people pay attention to, listen, we're not doing a Scorsese film. That's not what this particular project calls for, [laughter] so we don't need to hold it to that standard,
Margaux: Right. you know? I get it. It's challenging though because you're an artist and you have an appreciation of beauty and excellence and that's what makes your work. Excellent. And that's what makes it impactful. So it's also Right, it's, it's just finding that sweet spot. What is the middle ground,
Amanda: but errors make it human.
Margaux: Yeah.
Amanda: So that's what I've had to learn. I feel like I will over obsess about something in like my visual art and I've had to really lean into, you know, there's errors and then there's like vibes.
Margaux: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: You know, this is
Margaux: just adding a vibe.
Amanda: Yes. So it's
Margaux: adding some texture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Texture.
Amanda: When I started taking the test from my autism, one of the things that just off top let me know, like, Ooh, you might be on the spectrum, was like, one of the first questions was like, definitely kind of not at all. It's like, you know, that's the range. And it was like, you like stuffed animals. I was like. Ah.
Because they're everywhere. I mean, there's a bat right here. Yeah. Like it's just, it's od and those, when I would go in stores and I see those types of things, I'm like, is anyone else buying this but me? 'cause I'm buying this. Yeah. Like the squash melow. I have one.
Margaux: Yeah. So like, I'd love to hear from you, like, what is it that attracts of the stuffed animals?
Like is it the, is it the texture? Is it just like the pure cuteness?
Amanda: It's the cuteness. It's like, I want that in my world. Mm. Like I want that cuteness, I want that shape. The roundness. I want the texture. Like the furness, like I want it in my world. Mm-hmm. I always travel with a stuffed animal, even if I never take it out the bag.
It's just there. Knowing that it's there. Yes. In each bag. No, literally in every bag there is a stuffed animal. One has a little turquoise bat and it's like, I see these things in these stores in the airport, you know, like, yes. Beanie Babies. Mm-hmm. And I'm always like, is anyone else buying this beneath?
Yes. Margolis? Yes, I am.
Fair.
Margaux: So D, so this is the ABCs. 'cause that's a starting point. Oh, I thought it was a D
Amanda: point. All right. I thought that was A, B, C, D. Right, right, right. Okay. But there's other frameworks, other things we talk about, but yeah. When did you know, okay, I need to get, like something is actually wrong. Wrong is not the word, but something is actually impeding me.
From living fully and I need to look into it.
Margaux: I had a meltdown in ikea.
Amanda: Oh.
Margaux: So I actually never thought I had a DHD. I never thought I was neurodivergent. I mean, I hadn't even heard the term neurodiversity. So I was diagnosed 11 years ago now, and I knew at an early age that I felt a little, something was different about me.
But because that was the only brain I ever had, like I just never knew anything different. Right. Like if you're in the water, you don't know if it's cloudy. Not that my brain is cloudy, but you know what I mean. And I was always passionate about social issues. I wanted to be a photojournalist and travel the world and you know, tell stories to like, educate and make positive impact.
And quickly, I started struggling with depression and anxiety in high school and was diagnosed with depression when I was 18. I was just all consumed by things that were happening in the world. Like I think the war on Iraq had just started, and I was part of the student protesting group, and I just absorbed everything and I started just chalking it up to, well, I'm just too sensitive.
I just need to toughen up. Right? Like, this is just the way the world is. Stop being naive. Like these were all the messages, right? And I just started getting this idea of myself as just a sensitive, creative soul.
Amanda: Mm-hmm.
Margaux: And you know, I'm a water sign. So I started looking for explanations to try to explain, yeah.
Why I was so highly sensitive. I thought, well, I'm just being lazy, you know, when I would struggle with things like procrastination. So I started using coping mechanisms like workaholism, perfectionism, people pleasing, all of these things that we do to survive. As a producer, I was in a really great career fit because it was fast paced, highly stimulating.
Yes, I was working with creative people. I loved it. I was, for the most part in my career, thriving, but I was still struggling with depression, anxiety, and sensory overload episodes. I have sensory processing sensitivities, and so what that means is I'm highly sensitive to information in my environment. So that could be visuals, you know, lights, noises, smells, textures, the way that certain clothing feels.
And so I didn't know this and so there's examples, even when I was from when I was a kid until adult, where I would have meltdowns and shutdowns, but I didn't know it was happening and there was a lot of shame and embarrassment. Mm-hmm. So like one time in New York, you know how they do the free concerts in Central Park?
Yeah. So it was after work and my friends, we, a bunch of friends we were meeting and it was like the big lawn where there's like hundreds of people. It's like a sea of people.
Amanda: Yep.
Margaux: And we're waiting for the concert to start and we're on the picnic blanket and I'm like looking around and there was like so much just talking visual commotion, the visual overstimulation.
And I was in the middle of the sea of all of these blankets and I started feeling like I was having a panic attack and I started like shutting down. Like I was finding it difficult to speak and I didn't know it was happening, so I just kind of made up a light. I told my friends like, Hey, I have a headache.
I'm not feeling well. I, I have to go home, finish up something for work. I don't remember. I made up some like thing and I remember I was just like, let me just get outta here. And it was like really hard to like get navigate out without stepping on people's blankets. And I got to the edge of Central Park and it was just getting dark and it was like that paved walkway and I just started crying.
Amanda: I was
Margaux: like sobbing, ugly, crying. And I didn't even know why. And that was just one of many, that's like one micro moment of many, a string of moments. Right. But that was in New York, Ikea is
Amanda: the height of overstimulation
Margaux: and it's maze like There's no quick exit. No, there's no like quick release. Like I just need to like take a sensory break outta here.
No. Yes. 'cause they make you go through the whole maze of the whole entire store. Even if you're like, I just need like a pillow or whatever it is. Yep. So fast forward, I had moved out to the Bay Area for a new job. I was working at a nonprofit media company and my parents were in the Bay Area. So I asked my mom if she would come with me to Ikea, 'cause I needed to get some stuff from my new apartment.
It was a Sunday, it was super crowded. It was like hot and there was like kids screaming and you know, it was like crowd. It's Ikea. Ikea and Costco on a Sunday is just, oh my goodness. That's not for anybody.
Amanda: For what it's worth.
Margaux: No. I like going grocery shopping at night when it's like empty. No one's there and I don't know, they do sensory hours at stores, but they do it from like 6:00 AM to like eight was am and I'm like, I'm sleeping.
Like stop it. Like these stores are like, we're launching sensory friendly hours and it's like 6:00 AM and I'm like, these aren't human friendly hours.
Amanda: Yes. They're not human friendly.
Margaux: So the neurodivergent storytelling, see, we went around, we're coming back. I mean is if you
Amanda: go to an Amanda Seals talk, this is what you're gonna get.
I'll come back. But we're gonna dovetail.
Margaux: Yes, we're dovetailing. I don't even, so when people say let's dovetail, like, I don't understand what that, how that came about. Like what does dovetail mean?
Amanda: Let's Google,
Margaux: I know what a dove is and what the tail is, but like
Amanda: where did the phrase, let's dovetail.
Originate. Okay. The term dovetail, the etymology of the name comes from the resemblance between the tenon or a mortice of the joint to the shape of a dove's tail. In Europe, the dovetail joint is sometimes called a swallowtail joint, a curve tail joint, the meaning of dovetail basically. Um,
Margaux: things coming together.
Things coming together, keep on the pill coming together.
Amanda: But that's somehow anyone that uses it. Everyone I see uses it means like we're going to divert.
Margaux: Yeah. Well, maybe we can ask corporate Erin offline about this. Yeah. Because she probably knows what the answer. Yes.
Amanda: I mean, I was gonna go even further because I remember, like my ex, I do believe, I believe that we actually may have made it if both of us knew that we were neurodivergent and could like Yes.
Help ourselves. I mean, he had other stuff going on that was more related to, I think, unresolved trauma. But I think like. If he wasn't also dealing with the other thing, then maybe he could have managed that. Because I, without question, after knowing this man for 20 years, I'm like, and also because we share similar things.
Like I remember I had him go to Costco to help me like do something, and he was like, I can't go back. But he was never able to verbalize his stuff. So that was part of the problem, right? Yes. And in hindsight, I'm like, oh, you couldn't, it was overstimulating, like you could not handle the overstimulation, and if you had just said, it's too overstimulating for me, then we could have talked about, well, can you go back at a time when it's less stimulating?
Yes. And now we would've solved it.
Margaux: Yes. And that's why I'm so passionate about helping neurodivergent people, like even just understand themselves and then building their toolbox. 'cause there's so many things we can do to support ourselves. So like now if I'm, I went to Costco with somebody formally I was dating and I have loop earplugs, just earplugs.
Mm-hmm. And so if it gets too loud, and then also just communicating with my partner so they know. And then it's like, oh, if I can have a shorthand to say, Hey, I'm getting overstimulated, I'm gonna step outside. I'll come back and find you and it's not a big deal. And it's just like, okay, and I can take care of myself.
I can do what I need to do, and then I'm preventing having these episodes, right? And so it can look different for everyone, but if you are experiencing sensory overload, it can look like you can have an angry outburst, you can have an emotional response. You're crying, even though you're not like sad about anything.
You can have gastrointestinal issues. You can get a headache. It can just like literally impact your body because one or more of your senses is being flooded with too much information and your brain can't process it. So then you're melting down or you're shutting down.
Amanda: Margaux, when I tell you that. Like, so your version of like how you said like these are just like a series of different moments, like your meltdown. My version of meltdown is a melt up. Hmm. A blow up, yes. Uhhuh. And I'm also a Black woman. Right. And also like I'm theater trained so when I blow up it's gonna be resonant.
Mm-hmm. And so this has really misrepresented me in many ways because it looks like I am being mean. It looks like I am being impatient. And I understand that it looks like that. But what it's really a result of is like my brain going
Yes. And I think before I knew that I didn't know how to, I. Curtail it happening or how to alert people to like, I need this thing to happen in this way to help avoid that. And so what it sounded more like was me giving orders. Yes. And it probably was like that's what I was doing. I was giving orders versus like, you know, Hey, can we do this?
Because, and so I know that so much of the stigma around like Amanda Seals is difficult is because yes, it has been difficult to be me. Like for me, like it has been physically, mentally, emotionally difficult. So there are people who have had to interact with that. And I'm just like, yeah, I feel you sister.
I feel you brother. So when you talk about those things, it's like, I see it. I mean, I'm writing a story in the book about when I was on this photo shoot with Essence Magazine in Grenada and the one of you on the boat. Yes. Over the course of the day, these poses,
Margaux: no, it was amazing. And then the flowing in the wind, like I'm a visual person, so I, yes, I see it in my
Amanda: mind.
The Valentino dress on S'S, boots in the carnage, but over the course of the day. So one of my hypersensitivities is I need information. If I am not getting information, like it really affects me in a very real way. Yes. And I know that for some people that looks like me trying to be bossy or me trying to like micromanage and I'm just really trying to understand where I'm at in the world.
Yes, yes. That's literally what it is. Like I'm trying to understand where we're at in the world. It's not about me giving permission. It's a lot of times just me wanting to just be a part of the world that I'm in. So over the course of the day, there just kept being more and more decisions being made that did not include me, that were only affecting me.
Margaux: Yes.
Amanda: Everyone's literally there for you. Like that's your shoot. It's literally like I'm the center of the shoot and I'm being completely like ignored and also like not made privy to things that are shifting and it just starts to make me feel uncomfortable. Also, you're driving in a van with like eight people.
You're driving through Grenada, which itself is overstimulating. Like it's just, you know, and it's very like, okay, we're gonna go here. We need to do this. And then we reached a point where I realized that they had cut one of the scenes from the shoot. Then I was like, we just passed the waterfall, like why aren't we going there?
And they were like, oh, we're just weird and we're not gonna be able to because we have to get to Belmont Estate or else they're gonna cancel. So my other thing is justice sensitivity. So if you lie to me, yes, yes. Some people might take lies as just like whatever. I take it as a. Front? Yes. So when they said that Margaux, my aunt owns Belmont Estate, you're telling me that she said We gonna get canceled if we don't get there at a certain time.
You telling me Chale is about to ca? So I called Chale, we're in the van, and I said, chall, they said that if we don't get there on time, you're gonna cancel. She say, oh, you mean cancel, we live here and you'll come in. So you mean cancel. So then I call an audible and we were passing through the rainforest and I was like, can we stop here so we can make up for the shot that they canceled right here?
And the point of the story was that when I asked them to do that, they literally had someone come to the van, open the door, and like sternly tell me, you are not in charge here. You don't get to have a say. You need to just go along with what's happening and just deal with it. And when she closed that door.
I was like, I,
Margaux: yeah. And don't tell us what to do. Say that, oh my God. And don't tell us what to do because it's gonna trigger the oppositional force.
Amanda: Can you talk more about that? Because Oh my, you're busting me over right now. Because I try and tell people, don't tell me what to do, and they don't understand what that's about.
When I'm doing views from Amanda land and people are in the comments and they'll be like, you need to da da. It's really like, get stop. Mm. Please talk more to that, please.
Margaux: So, it's interesting because we see with autistic folks and A DHD, there can be oppositional behavior. And so sometimes that can be misconstrued, especially in school because school is all about being obedient and being likable.
And so for people that, like for example, I used to get in trouble in school for asking why. Same asking too many questions. Literally asking questions. And so for some kids asking questions is how they learn. It's part of their learning style, it's part of their processing style. And this plays out in the workplace.
So in the workplace, when people are seeking information, like you said, you need more information so that you can understand. And they talk about autistic people being bottom up thinkers. So you like to have a lot of the details to be able to come and, and understand the big picture versus other people being top down thinkers.
So when you're asking questions, sometimes it's misinterpreted as you are being oppositional, you're being difficult, you are questioning under your boss, you're questioning their authority. And so one of the things I tell managers when I go in and do trainings in workplaces is if someone's asking questions, don't assume they're questioning you or questioning your authority or trying to be difficult.
They may just. Genuinely just be seeking information so that they can do their job, the thing, job, do the thing. And also, some of us are conceptual learners and processors, so we need to understand the big picture and how all the pieces connect in order to do our piece. And not everyone is that, but I'm highly conceptual too.
So I need to know the why behind what we're doing. I need to know what everyone else is doing so I understand how my piece connects. Yes. So the thing is, it can be powerful when we just have this awareness about ourselves. Then we can even just tell people like, Hey, you know, sometimes ask a lot of questions.
It helps me. It helps me understand what we're doing here. But the oppositional piece, because of racism and because of bias in the medical system, we see that young children, so Black boys for example, are five times more likely to be diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder or another behavior or conduct disorder.
Rather than getting an accurate diagnosis of autism. Mm. So a lot of times behaviors, the same behavior is seen as somebody being noncompliant, being oppositional when they may in fact have a learning disability. They may in fact be autistic. They may have a DHD, right? They may just be learning differently.
So we need to know that learning looks different for everyone and we need to support and empower educators also with this knowledge too, so they, they can teach to all different types of learning styles.
Amanda: I knew this was gonna be good marks, I knew, but I didn't know it was gonna be this good. Like, I mean, because when you were just talking about the whole questions thing and like letting people know, like now that I know myself better, even my business relations manager Kathe, she's able to communicate to people before I go to places.
Like, this is how she's gonna show up. You know, this is how she exists in the space. So that they also are understanding, already having a context of like, oh, this is what she's about. And what's interesting is that prior to her being the person that is like my liaison, I've always had men and I've never at any point had a male manager or agent.
I would say Matthew Horowitz is probably the closest, well I'll say managers. I've never had a male manager at any point. Be curious about my needs. Mm. To be able to communicate them beyond my needs of like what's on my writer. You know, like, what do I want in my dressing room? What do I want on stage? And so like, those questions never mattered because as a talent, you're also expected to not have any needs by the way.
Mm. When you're in that entertainment world. No. Unless you're like Beyonce and J-Lo who are like, I need 52 white dubs in my dressing room. Right. You don't get to have needs. And so, you know, shout out to Jesse Collins because he executive produced my special and I've worked with him a number of times and when I did the BET awards, he told me that he had, when he met with the crew, he let them know, this is how Amanda Seals works, this is how we will get the best out of Amanda Seals.
She requires information, Uhhuh, so we're gonna provide her with all. And that him telling me what he told them was the first time that I professionally was able to really realize like, oh, I guess I am different like in my needs. And he was like able to communicate it to me in a way that I could communicate to someone else.
And I used to date this dude Wordsworth back in the day, and he did that same thing for me with men. He was like, anyone who's dating you needs to know this. And he like wrote out a list. He created a user manual for you? Yes. Well, we are about to create a Patreon only segment now, speaking of user manuals that have been created for me.
When I first was like kind of navigating my way through this self-diagnosis, I spoke to Margaux and we actually were able to get up for lunch. And were we in dc? Where were we? Baltimore. Baltimore, yes. We got up for lunch while I was doing standup in Baltimore and Margaux put me on to the default. Default.
The Default Mode Network. Default Mode network, and the task positive network. And learning about these two different brain functions has been a game changer, and we are going to talk about it right here when we move over to the Seal Squad for our Patreon only segment. So come and check us out.
What I think one of the biggest parts of like the neurodivergent brain is for people to understand is that like everybody has their own idiosyncrasies, right? Yes. But it's like a mount and frequency that those idiosyncrasies exist. Is that accurate?
Margaux: Yes. So we're all of the spectrum of neurodiversity, all of us as humans, right?
So we live in a world of minds of all kinds. In our human species. There's no such thing as a normal brain. And that's different than what we grew up understanding.
Amanda: Yes.
Margaux: Because when we grew up, I mean, I'm just a few years younger than you. There's two boxes. You're either normal or you're not normal.
That's it. Right? You're either normal or you're crazy, and no one wants to be in the crazy box. Mm-hmm. And so when this term neurodiversity came around in the late nineties, that was a paradigm shift. 'cause now it's like, oh, brain differences are a natural part of human diversity. We're all somewhere on this spectrum of neurocognitive functioning.
There's no such thing as a normal brain. And then within that you have neurodivergent where you actually do have brain differences that are significant enough that it's impacting people's everyday life, how they experience the world around them, how they learn, how they interact with others, how they communicate, and their brain.
Our brain is divergent. It diverges from what is considered normal in our society.
Amanda: So the last question I'll ask is, I remember when I first learned about my autism, and I was speaking to my assistant at the time, and I was telling her like these revelations I was having around like my needs. And I remember her saying, well, isn't that really your responsibility?
Like, is it really fair to quote, unquote, put that on other people? What do you say to folks who may not be neurodivergent and how they can perhaps make space?
Margaux: There's so much in
Amanda: there,
Margaux: it's not, oh my goodness, asking for what you need. It's literally communication. You're not putting anything on anyone.
Right? And I wanna just say self-advocacy can also be super challenging for neurodivergent people. Why? Because especially if you're late diagnosed, you've had a whole lifetime of having your needs invalidated. Mm-hmm. A lot of people don't even know what they need, so they're like, I wanna request accommodations at work, but I don't even know what can help me.
Amanda: Yeah.
Margaux: Because from a very young age, you were told, you're too sensitive, you're lazy. Stop overreacting, stop being crazy. You're just being stupid. And actually, there's a stat psychiatrist, William Dotson estimated that by the age of 12, young people with A DHD have already received 20,000 more negative messages than their peers from adults in their life.
Parents, teachers, 20,000 more negative messages by the age of 12. So imagine the impact that takes on self-esteem. So then you feel like you can't even trust yourself because it's like, well, I feel like I need this, but then everyone around me is telling me I'm overreacting, I'm being difficult, I'm being hostile, whatever it is.
So part of the journey after diagnosis is kind of a homecoming back to yourself to learn what do I need? What do I need to feel? Peaceful and joyful in my body, in this environment. And sometimes it's trial and error. And then over time you can learn, okay, this is what I need. And then learning how to communicate that.
So that's what self-advocacy is. It's essentially learning what you need and then how to communicate it in a way that's effective.
Amanda: And so the folks who are receiving that information,
Margaux: yes. To answer your actual question. Yeah. So I think that one of the things that I tell people is if you're communicating with someone who's neurodivergent, don't minimize their experiences.
So don't say, oh, that's not real. Everyone has a DHD these days. Well, you don't look autistic, right? Don't minimize and listen and take their request seriously. Right? That's it.
Amanda: Take each other seriously.
Margaux: And this is the thing, it's not special needs, it's human needs because every human has strengths and areas where they need support.
Everybody has strengths in areas where they need support. And it's this idea of interdependence, which is another principle of disability justice, which is that we all need each other. Yep. And I love you're saying we are each other's business. When we support each other, we lift each other up. Mm-hmm. I don't know if I got that right.
But we have to care about the outcomes of each other's lives. And that's what I was talking about with the neurodivergent friendship. Like Eric, and go read his book. For people listening, we're not broken. Changing the autism conversation, caring about the wellbeing of other people in our lives. And if they're asking for something, don't tell them you're being difficult or your needs are too much.
That's what they need if they need to take a sensory break. 'cause the van with eight people talking and on the roads is overstimulating. Okay, let's take a break now we can continue shooting again. I. People have this misperception that accommodating people with disabilities is difficult or expensive or complicated, but it's usually nine times outta 10.
It's easy. It's things like just having a little bit of patience, kindness, respect. That's it.
Amanda: That's it. Well, thank you so much, Margaux. This has been incredible. I need to have you back to do a part two because I know there's so much more to talk about. And this really is, I know for a lot of people, particularly my audience that has so many Black women, this has been a real like watershed time for the possibility of Neurodivergence being within their lives and solving for so many of the traumatic spaces that they've been in.
Like, and not solving necessarily, but like providing context for so much of the traumas that they've received related to their own behaviors that they didn't know the answers for. So thank you so much. And where can people learn more about the work that you do or be involved? So if you wanna learn more,
Margaux: you can check out minds of all kinds.com.
I have a resource page with resources on there and I want people to know there are resources out there to support you. So you're mentioning Black women. There's amazing people like IngerShaye Cozy, who's a therapist, who specializes specifically in working with Black women who have ADHD. There's ADHD Babes in the uk, which is peer support groups specifically for Black women and non-binary folks who have ADHD.
There's tons of resources out there, A lot of them are listed on my website. So thanks for tuning in. And I think that's it.
Amanda: I think that's it. Thank you. I think that's it for now. Much. Yeah, because you know, we could just keep talking. I know. We could keep going. Listen, if I didn't have another interview coming up, I would be like part two.
Well, thank you again and we will have you back and shout out to all my neurospicys out there.
Margaux: Yes, thank you, Amanda.
